mundodvd y el pitufismo partidista

[Moonfly]

Marcelo, las frases de Moonfly que he colgado y sobre las cuales he argumentado son claras:

Moofly escribió:
What I am really looking for is a good quality hi fi amp to power the front 3 speakers and give a very good musical sound for 2 channel stereo, and top HT performance at the same time

Moofly escribió:
I am thinking that the Hi-fi amp route is preferable for the speakers. The pro stuff isnt usually as good, but I am open to correction on that as amps arent my area of expertise. Really I am just looking to move from an AVR to dedicated amps.

Y sí, puedes sacarle toda la punta que quieras .... pero buscar esa "musicalidad en un amplificador hifi que no te va a dar uno de pro sabes perfectamente es una pitufada"


Un saludete

I wont again go to the effort of trying to respond to all your comments, I have already address them previously and dont feel I need to add any more to any of it. I may not be the worlds most expert person on amplifiers, which is why I always try to gain the added opinions of others, but allow me to put that into context for you.

Pro amps are known in some cases to have measurable differences from home audio amps. Many have a higher signal to noise ration, and fluctuate under loads more than the home amplifiers designed fro use in the domestic environment. In addition, specifying the intended use of an amplifier (or in fact any piece of equipment) help people understand better what your goals are, and aids improved answers. 2 channel stereo at that time was run in pure audio (full range) mode, so presented a more difficult load to any amplifier, and as such I wanted an amplifier that would remain composed under those conditions.

Now let me put that particular amp choice into context. If one wants a high powered home amplifier, especially a multi channel one, then you have to look at higher end products that cost more. An amp from a company like Cinepro, or Bryston for example, is many thousands of Euros/Pounds. The amplifiers I was looking at are built the same as these examples, but cost half the price, so I am once again looking for products that represent best value for money, not products selling on hi-fi folklore. In addition, those amps can be customised to the customers requirements, so you can specify how many channels and how much power you want, and even specify the look of the face plate, so this further makes them an attractive solution.

A little more research on your part would have uncovered this information, and the whole reason for looking at those amps was to purchase one that would never need replacing.

No entraré de nuevo en el esfuerzo de tratar de responder a todos sus comentarios, ya les he dirección previamente y no se siente tengo que añadir nada más a ninguno de ellos. No puede ser el mundo persona más experta en los amplificadores, por lo que siempre trato de obtener las opiniones de otros añadidos, pero me permite poner esto en contexto para usted.

Amperios Pro se conocen en algunos casos a tener diferencias medibles de los amplificadores de audio de origen. Muchos tienen una señal de alto a ruido, y fluctúan con cargas más de los amplificadores de casa diseñada lado a otro uso en el entorno doméstico. Además, especificar el uso previsto de un amplificador (o de hecho cualquier equipo) ayudan a las personas entender mejor cuáles son sus metas, y las respuestas ayuda a mejorar. 2 canales estéreo en ese momento se ha ejecutado en el más puro sonido (rango completo) el modo, por lo que presenta una carga más difícil de cualquier amplificador, y como tal quería un amplificador que mantener la compostura en esas condiciones.

Ahora me puso que la elección de amplificador en particular en su contexto. Si uno quiere un amplificador de alta potencia en casa, sobre todo de múltiples canales, entonces usted tiene que mirar a los productos de gama alta que cuestan más. Un amplificador de una empresa como Cinepro o Bryston por ejemplo, es de muchos miles de euros / libras. Los amplificadores que estaba viendo se construyen igual que estos ejemplos, pero a mitad de precio, así que estoy de nuevo en busca de productos que representan el mejor valor por su dinero, no la venta de productos de alta fidelidad el folclore. Además, los amplificadores pueden ser adaptados a las necesidades de los clientes, para que pueda especificar el número de canales y la cantidad de energía que desee, e incluso especificar el aspecto de la placa de la cara, por lo que los hace aún más una solución atractiva.

Investigar un poco más de su parte se han descubierto esta información, y la única razón para mirar a los amplificadores era comprar uno que nunca necesitan ser reemplazadas.

[atcing]

I wont again go to the effort of trying to respond to all your comments, I have already address them previously and dont feel I need to add any more to any of it. I may not be the worlds most expert person on amplifiers, which is why I always try to gain the added opinions of others, but allow me to put that into context for you.

Pro amps are known in some cases to have measurable differences from home audio amps. Many have a higher signal to noise ration, and fluctuate under loads more than the home amplifiers designed fro use in the domestic environment. In addition, specifying the intended use of an amplifier (or in fact any piece of equipment) help people understand better what your goals are, and aids improved answers. 2 channel stereo at that time was run in pure audio (full range) mode, so presented a more difficult load to any amplifier, and as such I wanted an amplifier that would remain composed under those conditions.

Now let me put that particular amp choice into context. If one wants a high powered home amplifier, especially a multi channel one, then you have to look at higher end products that cost more. An amp from a company like Cinepro, or Bryston for example, is many thousands of Euros/Pounds. The amplifiers I was looking at are built the same as these examples, but cost half the price, so I am once again looking for products that represent best value for money, not products selling on hi-fi folklore. In addition, those amps can be customised to the customers requirements, so you can specify how many channels and how much power you want, and even specify the look of the face plate, so this further makes them an attractive solution.

A little more research on your part would have uncovered this information, and the whole reason for looking at those amps was to purchase one that would never need replacing.

No entraré de nuevo en el esfuerzo de tratar de responder a todos sus comentarios, ya les he dirección previamente y no se siente tengo que añadir nada más a ninguno de ellos. No puede ser el mundo persona más experta en los amplificadores, por lo que siempre trato de obtener las opiniones de otros añadidos, pero me permite poner esto en contexto para usted.

Amperios Pro se conocen en algunos casos a tener diferencias medibles de los amplificadores de audio de origen. Muchos tienen una señal de alto a ruido, y fluctúan con cargas más de los amplificadores de casa diseñada lado a otro uso en el entorno doméstico. Además, especificar el uso previsto de un amplificador (o de hecho cualquier equipo) ayudan a las personas entender mejor cuáles son sus metas, y las respuestas ayuda a mejorar. 2 canales estéreo en ese momento se ha ejecutado en el más puro sonido (rango completo) el modo, por lo que presenta una carga más difícil de cualquier amplificador, y como tal quería un amplificador que mantener la compostura en esas condiciones.

Ahora me puso que la elección de amplificador en particular en su contexto. Si uno quiere un amplificador de alta potencia en casa, sobre todo de múltiples canales, entonces usted tiene que mirar a los productos de gama alta que cuestan más. Un amplificador de una empresa como Cinepro o Bryston por ejemplo, es de muchos miles de euros / libras. Los amplificadores que estaba viendo se construyen igual que estos ejemplos, pero a mitad de precio, así que estoy de nuevo en busca de productos que representan el mejor valor por su dinero, no la venta de productos de alta fidelidad el folclore. Además, los amplificadores pueden ser adaptados a las necesidades de los clientes, para que pueda especificar el número de canales y la cantidad de energía que desee, e incluso especificar el aspecto de la placa de la cara, por lo que los hace aún más una solución atractiva.

Investigar un poco más de su parte se han descubierto esta información, y la única razón para mirar a los amplificadores era comprar uno que nunca necesitan ser reemplazadas.

Los datos que me indicas ya los conocemos perfectamente en este foro, pero ma pece que usted se ha pasado bien poco por la sección de "PRUEBAS CIEGAS", donde verá con suma claridad los resutados de varios "blind test" entre los que se comparan integrados de alta gama vs A/V baratos y etapas de pro...

Con el tiempo estoy seguro que dejará de "creer" en muchos de los mitos que todavía cree. Para ello necesita dejar un poco de lado los tecnicismos y comenzar a realizar "blind test" :

http://www.matrixhifi.com/pruebasciegas.htm

Un saludete

[Moonfly]

Tú lo ves de una manera y yo lo veo de otra. Wink

No obstante, Moonfly no es "el típico pitufo de audioplanet" (si es lo que habías pensado al leer mi escrito Razz ).

Tiene superados muchos mitos....

Así es tal y como yo lo veo. Estamos de acuerdo entonces.

slds, Marcelo

Si al final estamos de acuerdo



Es que aún no he entrado en el debate completo que tuvimos (hasta mi baneo, claro) sobre el "supuesto diferente carácter" de los subs según Q, sea BR , sellado, etc... incluso tras la EQ... claro, que él aplica una EQ automática de Audyssey que evidentemente no tiene porqué igualar totalmente las curvas de dos subs donde un oído educado puede notar diferencias. Lo curioso es que lo AFIRMA y cita literalmente que tampoco los ha comparado jamás en ciega...

Incluso propusimos una prueba ciega entre lo comentado de los subs en Tarragona en la que me sale con que el amplificador y el altavoz tiene que ser el mismo para poder ver la diferencia entre un sealed y BR .. cuando yo evidentemnete ni creo ni en diferencias de calidad de sonido audible ni entre amplificadores típicos, ni entre drivers para sub (siempre y cuando se trabaje a niveles de SPL donde ninguno de ellos trabajan al límit)... pero él no parece opinar igual....


Ahora dime si la siguiente argumentación para "agarrarse a SU clavo" no es pitufa sobretodo en una de las frases donde se apoya que recalco:

Moonfly escribió en mundodvd :
do not know why you keep mentioning distortion figures etc. The difference in character between a sealed and ported has little to do with these factors. The difference is realised because the designs are different. If you take a speaker, and power it from an amp, and place it in an enclosure, it produces a certain sound. Reduce the size of that enclosure and it changes the sound, even if the response curves are matched. This is what is described as system Q and it is very well documented. If the differences didnt exists then SVS would have had no reason at all to go to the effort of designing and making an SB13 to add to their range, the PB13 would be doing the exact shame job. The truth is, it is almost impossible to get these 2 subwoofer to sound identical, no matter the amount of eq used.



TransNo sé por qué se siguen mencionando cifras de distorsión, etc La diferencia de carácter entre un sellado y portado tiene poco que ver con estos factores. La diferencia se lleva a cabo porque los diseños son diferentes. Si usted toma un altavoz, y el poder que a partir de un amplificador, y colocarlo en un lugar cerrado, que produce un sonido determinado. Reducir el tamaño de ese recinto y que cambia el sonido, aunque las curvas de respuesta se comparan. Esto es lo que se describe como el sistema de Q y se documenta muy bien. Si las diferencias no existe, entonces SVS no habría tenido ninguna razón para hacer el esfuerzo de diseñar y hacer un SB13 para añadir a su gama, el PB13 estaría haciendo el trabajo vergüenza exacta. La verdad es que es casi imposible conseguir estos dos subwoofer de sonido idéntico, no importa la cantidad de la ecuación utilizada.

Podríamos añadir lo de, tambiñen según él, la imposibilidad de poder escuchar 0.5dB de diferencia de nivel en la zona de graves (eso último ya es de su cosecha... porque durante el hilo de mundodvd donde lo comenté yo no hice jamás alusión a frecuencia alguna).. aunque en este afirmo que de 120hz hacia abajo también se distingue en ciega.

Y otros tantos...


Pero el hilo en realidad no va por ahí, sino por el descarado partidismo de la administración en la imposición de las normas, donde como ya sabes en todo foro pitufo sólo se ven en una dirección; dirección que siempre es la misma....


Un saludete


P.D.: Si como dicen por el "otro foro" yo también tuviera que tomar parte legal del asunto sacaría algo más dañino que de mi típico "no me entiendes" , "eres un caradura", o un "liante", de más de uno que parece no se mira al espejo desde hace mucho tiempo, pero que las capturas de pantalla reflejan con suma claridad por si alguno tiene la picardía de empezar a editar

My comments stand and do not change. If you can watch a scene from a film blind, then watch the same scene with the sub channel altered by .5db, then you will be the first person in the world to achieve this feat. When measuring an in room response, the goal should always be a flat response, but as completely flat is almost impossible, then a tolerance level has to be decided. In general, if you can get your response within +/- 3db, then you have a good flat in room response. Its for the same reason some people like to use 1/3rd octave smoothing (many commercial companies use much more smoothing) on their graphs, because it is much more representative of what the human ear can actually perceive in that frequency band.

As for comments on editing, I only ever edit to add comments or fix spelling errors. If a 'claim' I edit to try make you look silly is the best you have, then it is clear what you intentions and true goals are, and I will finish talking with you. There are people much more deserving of my time, and better things I would rather do. I came here simply to put a face to my name, much better I do that than let you tell lies about me behind my back.

I have nothing further I need to add. If anybody here wishes a discussion with me about anything, then its not difficult to find me on AVForums or MundoDVD or HometheaterShack. For what it is worth, it may interest you to know I was a moderator on HTS for a couple years before moving to Spain and having to quit, and my main area of work was in subwoofer design and construction, setup, integration and equalization, so I do have a small amount of experience in that area.

All the best

Dan

[atcing]

My comments stand and do not change. If you can watch a scene from a film blind, then watch the same scene with the sub channel altered by .5db, then you will be the first person in the world to achieve this feat. When measuring an in room response, the goal should always be a flat response, but as completely flat is almost impossible, then a tolerance level has to be decided. In general, if you can get your response within +/- 3db, then you have a good flat in room response. Its for the same reason some people like to use 1/3rd octave smoothing (many commercial companies use much more smoothing) on their graphs, because it is much more representative of what the human ear can actually perceive in that frequency band.

As for comments on editing, I only ever edit to add comments or fix spelling errors. If a 'claim' I edit to try make you look silly is the best you have, then it is clear what you intentions and true goals are, and I will finish talking with you. There are people much more deserving of my time, and better things I would rather do. I came here simply to put a face to my name, much better I do that than let you tell lies about me behind my back.

I have nothing further I need to add. If anybody here wishes a discussion with me about anything, then its not difficult to find me on AVForums or MundoDVD or HometheaterShack. For what it is worth, it may interest you to know I was a moderator on HTS for a couple years before moving to Spain and having to quit, and my main area of work was in subwoofer design and construction, setup, integration and equalization, so I do have a small amount of experience in that area.

All the best

Dan

Sus comentarios son claros, están escritos en el foro de mundodvd, y según transcurre el hilo van dando tumbos según sople en viento, que no le niego todo ese embrollo pueda ser por culpa de una malinterpretación de nuestra lengua en la que ha entendido lo que no debería.

Insisto en que 0.5dB de diferencia de nivel se notan perfectamente en "blind test" aunque usted afirme que es imposible

Qué haya sido moderador de HTS no tiene nada que ver con que sus argumentaciones sean falaces; vuelve de nuevo con una argumentación subjetivista para autoconvencerse de ello. Céntrese en los hechos y por favor, no nos restriegue su currículum.


Un saludete

[Marcelo]

Pro amps are known in some cases to have measurable differences from home audio amps. Many have a higher signal to noise ration, and fluctuate under loads more than the home amplifiers designed fro use in the domestic environment. In addition, specifying the intended use of an amplifier (or in fact any piece of equipment) help people understand better what your goals are, and aids improved answers. 2 channel stereo at that time was run in pure audio (full range) mode, so presented a more difficult load to any amplifier, and as such I wanted an amplifier that would remain composed under those conditions.

Dan, SNR on proamps doesn't need to be any worse than home amps, from a design pov, an amp is an amp is an amp... it's basically the same.

Only poor design on a specific amp will throw a poor SNR figure. But that's valid for either home amps or pro amps: a flawed design on a proamp doesn't makes all proamps flawed or any worse than home amps.

I'm using proamps to drive my main speakers, and there's no noise whatsoever associated with the use of it. Nor are any worse than my many previous home amps I had in the past. The cost pr watt is probably the lowest out there (300€ for 2x650W @ 8 ohm, bridgeable to 1x1300W @ 8 ohm...that's a whooping .23€/W!)

My concern with your statement is the apparent generalization you make against the use of proamps.

But, no doubt that endless power is, from my pov, more desirable than running shy on power regardless of the average needs.

If we add some specific needs such as running subs with a high SPL for movies (bursting effects) which I believe is easier to experience than with just music, all the more reason to have plenty of power reserves. I'm not sure all AV amps are capable, but again, I have no experience and may be wrong saying so. Anyhow, your approach makes sense to me.

Now let me put that particular amp choice into context. If one wants a high powered home amplifier, especially a multi channel one, then you have to look at higher end products that cost more. An amp from a company like Cinepro, or Bryston for example, is many thousands of Euros/Pounds.

I second that.

The amplifiers I was looking at are built the same as these examples, but cost half the price, so I am once again looking for products that represent best value for money, not products selling on hi-fi folklore.

Again, something anyone in this forum will have no trouble to agree with you. Folklore around hifi and (worse yet) high end is disgusting.

In addition, those amps can be customised to the customers requirements, so you can specify how many channels and how much power you want, and even specify the look of the face plate, so this further makes them an attractive solution.

Seems reasonable. What amps are you referring to? I'm still in the blind...

brgds, Marcelo

[Moonfly]

Dan, SNR on proamps doesn't need to be any worse than home amps, from a design pov, an amp is an amp is an amp... it's basically the same.

I agree it is a sweeping generalization of a comment rather than the norm. Better pro amps as with all things cost more, and once things begin to const more it can be more practical to no longer look at pro amps, especially ones with noisy fans and cases that can look less than aesthetically desirable. I also always advise people to look at pro amps for powering DIY subs because they make so much more sense. In general though, home audio amps usually look to have lower THD and better SNR figures, some of which can affect higher up the frequency range.

Only poor design on a specific amp will throw a poor SNR figure. But that's valid for either home amps or pro amps: a flawed design on a proamp doesn't makes all proamps flawed or any worse than home amps.

Agreed. Of course, amps like behringer amps for example, with higher than some SNR figures are still fine for subwoofer use.

I'm using proamps to drive my main speakers, and there's no noise whatsoever associated with the use of it. Nor are any worse than my many previous home amps I had in the past. The cost pr watt is probably the lowest out there (300€ for 2x650W @ 8 ohm, bridgeable to 1x1300W @ 8 ohm...that's a whooping .23€/W!)

I agree here too, and you can beat pro amps for cost per watt. Many home amp may quote superior specs, but if they are pushed hard and a pro amp is not, then the seemingly worse pro amp can actually be better, its really all about the correct context.

My concern with your statement is the apparent generalization you make against the use of proamps.

I can see it was a bit to generalized, which isnt fair. As you say, many pro amps measure very well in bench tests and better than some home kit under certain conditions.

But, no doubt that endless power is, from my pov, more desirable than running shy on power regardless of the average needs.

Agreed

In addition, those amps can be customised to the customers requirements, so you can specify how many channels and how much power you want, and even specify the look of the face plate, so this further makes them an attractive solution.

Seems reasonable. What amps are you referring to? I'm still in the blind...

brgds, Marcelo

[/quote]

The amps I was looking at at that time, and will be in the future are AB Systems amplifiers. They are made in the US.

[atcing]

I agree here too, and you can beat pro amps for cost per watt. Many home amp may quote superior specs, but if they are pushed hard and a pro amp is not, then the seemingly worse pro amp can actually be better, its really all about the correct context.

Mejor?, peor? ... estás insinuando con ello que se van a notar diferencias audibles o sólo medibles?

I can see it was a bit to generalized, which isnt fair. As you say, many pro amps measure very well in bench tests and better than some home kit under certain conditions.

Eso todos lo sabemos, pero... y las diferencias audibles que habrá entre éstos ? ... que son las que tienen realmente relevancia.

Agreed. Of course, amps like behringer amps for example, with higher than some SNR figures are still fine for subwoofer use.

Para subwoofer y para todo banda ... Si no te lo crees te sugiero realices un "blind test" serio entre los que comentas vs otros con mejores datos técnicos.

The amps I was looking at at that time, and will be in the future are AB Systems amplifiers. They are made in the US

Entonces, estás afirmanbdo que los amplificadores Behringer de estudio u otros de ese estilo no te sirven porque no dan la calidad de sonido que buscas??? eso es a lo que te refieres?

Un saludete

[NEEMO]

http://www.abamps.com/

[atcing]

http://www.abamps.com/

Mi colega mach16 vende una AB International muy bien de precio de segunda mano en este foro. Quizás a Moonfly le podría interesar ya que le gustan tanto las AB


viewtopic.php?t=9903

Pero mejor no digo porqué otro modelo la va a cambiar... ya que me da que Moonfly se echaría las manos a la cabeza y le diría que se echara para atrás


Un saludete

[Moonfly]

Its only 2 channel and has a pro faceplate, which I do not want as it needs to go in my home.

[atcing]

Its only 2 channel and has a pro faceplate, which I do not want as it needs to go in my home.

Ok... pero no me contestas a las preguntas que te he realizado

Un saludete

[Moonfly]

I already posted that the AB amps are superior to my Onkyo 875, the unit I wished to replace, because under extended listening sessions at elevated levels its limits were noticeable. I have also said that under normal conditions, with any pair of amps running cleanly, its is very hard if not impossible to tell the difference, at least for me personally. I have used a Behringer amp in my living room once and ran it for about a week, but the fan noise was unbearable, so I simply cant use a pro amp in a domestic environment where all my kit is in the listening room. I have never done a blind test of a domestic amplifier vs a pro amplifier.

[atcing]

I already posted that the AB amps are superior to my Onkyo 875, the unit I wished to replace, because under extended listening sessions at elevated levels its limits were noticeable. I have also said that under normal conditions, with any pair of amps running cleanly, its is very hard if not impossible to tell the difference, at least for me personally. I have used a Behringer amp in my living room once and ran it for about a week, but the fan noise was unbearable, so I simply cant use a pro amp in a domestic environment where all my kit is in the listening room.

Y si son imposibles de distinguir, porque tiene que ser un AB y no otro cualquiera que no tenga ventiladores? ... o la propia NU de Behringer tras quitárselos o cambiarlos por más silencosos de ordenador?

tampoco comprendo porqué citas estas frases:

I agree here too, and you can beat pro amps for cost per watt. Many home amp may quote superior specs, but if they are pushed hard and a pro amp is not, then the seemingly worse pro amp can actually be better, its really all about the correct context.

I can see it was a bit to generalized, which isnt fair. As you say, many pro amps measure very well in bench tests and better than some home kit under certain conditions

Agreed. Of course, amps like behringer amps for example, with higher than some SNR figures are still fine for subwoofer use.

The amps I was looking at at that time, and will be in the future are AB Systems amplifiers. They are made in the US

.... si ahora resulta que no se van a notar las diferencias audibles entre ellos, pues no tienen relevancia, luego que más da que uno mida mejor que otro (siempre y cuando cumplan unos mínimos que cumplen casi todos hasta acercarse a su límite de potencia
Si es que no paras de dar tumbos.

I have never done a blind test of a domestic amplifier vs a pro amplifier.

Ni entre subs. y sinceramente creo que ya va siendo hora de que te lo empieces a tomar en serio


Un saludete

[atcing]

Ahora pasamos a por lel tema cajas (que también se quedó a medias en mundodvd).

Sobre el diseño acústico las XTZ (y esa tan "excelentísima relación calidad/precio" insuperable que comentaste en el "otro foro") vs otras (como por ejemplo las notablemente más baratas Infinity) de similar tamaño pues qué quieres que te diga...:




A 30 grados ya cae prácticamente 4-5dB entre 4 -6.5Khz y unos 3.5dB en el extremo agudo?

En la vertical no digamos ... pero claro llevando un tweeter tan "alto" evidentemente la diretividad vertival se va a ver resentida , a lo que si añadimos la poca coherencia en el cruce pues

http://www.xtz.se/public/file.php?REF=2 ... 5_1_12.pdf

UN DISEÑO COHERENTE MANTIENE UNA DIRECTIVIDAD DE LINEAS PARALELAS SEGÚN TE VAS A ALEJANDO DEL EJE






Cuando en unas Infinity 360 y 362:




https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid= ... 0&hl=en_US


La linea verde se corresonde con a directividad horizontal a 30 grados del eje. Notablemente más coherente en frecuencia que en las XTZ 99.36 tanto en el cruce como en el tweeter.






http://www.stereophile.com/content/infi ... asurements


las Infinity 360 y 362 de sólo 350 euros pareja a nivel de coherencia en la directividad e integración de vías le meten un buen repaso tanto en la zona media como en la alta a las XTZ equivalente notablemente más caras. En cuanto a linealidad en la respuesta en frecuencia medida en eje también. De THD vs SPL ambas son excelentes, ya que los drivers que utilizan ambas son muy buenos..

Y no te digo que las XTZ no tengan un acabado más vistoso, y que no estén mejor diseñadas que otras , pero para nada me parece una caja con un diseño acústico de referencia (menos todavía a su nivel de precio).

Un saludete

[akvaro]

A 30 grados ya cae prácticamente 4-5dB entre 4 -6.5Khz y unos 3.5dB en el extremo agudo?

Atcing, ¿seguro que no te has equivocado al comentar la offaxis horizontal con la vertical? Esta es la offaxis horizontal del neocd3.0, el tweeter que usan las XTC, medida por un usuario del techtalk de part-express.

[Moonfly]

Y si son imposibles de distinguir, porque tiene que ser un AB y no otro cualquiera que no tenga ventiladores? ... o la propia NU de Behringer tras quitárselos o cambiarlos por más silencosos de ordenador?

tampoco comprendo porqué citas estas frases:

I agree here too, and you can beat pro amps for cost per watt. Many home amp may quote superior specs, but if they are pushed hard and a pro amp is not, then the seemingly worse pro amp can actually be better, its really all about the correct context.

I can see it was a bit to generalized, which isnt fair. As you say, many pro amps measure very well in bench tests and better than some home kit under certain conditions

Agreed. Of course, amps like behringer amps for example, with higher than some SNR figures are still fine for subwoofer use.

The amps I was looking at at that time, and will be in the future are AB Systems amplifiers. They are made in the US

.... si ahora resulta que no se van a notar las diferencias audibles entre ellos, pues no tienen relevancia, luego que más da que uno mida mejor que otro (siempre y cuando cumplan unos mínimos que cumplen casi todos hasta acercarse a su límite de potencia
Si es que no paras de dar tumbos.

I have never done a blind test of a domestic amplifier vs a pro amplifier.

Ni entre subs. y sinceramente creo que ya va siendo hora de que te lo empieces a tomar en serio


Un saludete

I have blind tested subs before a few times, not least the SVS PBU and PCU models to test the differences (ans there were differences). I have already stated the AB amps are superior to the Onkyo AVR I owned, because the Onkyo performance was inferior due to being unable to sustain clean power output, and that is also true for a couple Cambridge Audio amps I have tested.

Debating with you is pointless, You will just repeat yourself endlessly until the person you are arguing with gives up, I guess you must have little else to do, I simply dont know. I have heard many speakers in the £1000 and under bracket and the XTZ were the best in my opinion. Preference does matter here, but just like you argue there is no difference between sealed and ported sub, you will no doubt there is no difference between speakers of differing prices. In fact, speakers (and subwoofers) are the main area a system can be changed and the difference be very very noticeable, blind or otherwise. If you want to continue to deny these facts, then that is your choice.

[Moonfly]

Also, all the data your pulling on the XTZ speakers appears to be raw driver data and single speaker data, though I could be getting the translation wrong. Off axis responses are fine, but when you place you speakers in a stereo or even multi channel environment, and the speakers are toed in to the main listen area, it would be rare for anyone listening to the speakers to be more the 30 degrees off axis of the speakers at a distance of 4/5 meters. This comes down to things like careful setup or the system, so you can wax lyrical about specs all you want, the fact is it all needs putting into context, and ultimately, almost all speakers have their own character and its down to the end user to judge if they like it or not. A large part of the make up of speakers comes down to the drivers used, and the cabinet design (volume of the cabinet being a massive part of the final sound, as well as a sealed or BR design implementation). The crossover network is also part of this, and this is another area XTZ have come forward and clearly stated that they use standard components over fancy expensive ones of the same value, because ultimately it makes little or no difference to the final sound. Take some time to fully research the products, then feel free to cast your own opinion, although till you have actually listened to them, how much credit I would give that opinion is a complete guess.

[akvaro]

Moonfly, i don´t think that the data are for raw drivers, if you look close at the url in the image posted by atcing you will look that the data and the graphics are from a pdf in the XTZ website.

[atcing]

A 30 grados ya cae prácticamente 4-5dB entre 4 -6.5Khz y unos 3.5dB en el extremo agudo?

Atcing, ¿seguro que no te has equivocado al comentar la offaxis horizontal con la vertical? Esta es la offaxis horizontal del neocd3.0, el tweeter que usan las XTC, medida por un usuario del techtalk de part-express.

En las medidas que has colgado veo una caida muy similar a 30 grados que en el análisis de la revista que he colgado yo a los mismos 30 grados horizontal en el tweeter. Pero el problema de ese tweeter es sobretodo en la vertical (normal al ser tan alto), y en ei diseño de la caja en la zona de cruce de ese modelo de XTZ, PARA NADA UN DISEÑO COHERENTE:






Si te fijas en la gráfica de la revista que he colgado aparece la diferencia entre la respuesta en frecuencia de la caja con rejilla vs sin + la respuesta en eje y a 30 grados horizontal en las dos gráficas de arriba; y los drivers por separado + la directividad vertical en las dos de abajo, en este último caso incluso a más de 30 grados del eje (que son un desastre tanto en el cruce como en el tweeter comparada a numerosos modelos actuiales).

Un saludete

[atcing]

Also, all the data your pulling on the XTZ speakers appears to be raw driver data and single speaker data, though I could be getting the translation wrong. Off axis responses are fine, but when you place you speakers in a stereo or even multi channel environment, and the speakers are toed in to the main listen area, it would be rare for anyone listening to the speakers to be more the 30 degrees off axis of the speakers at a distance of 4/5 meters. This comes down to things like careful setup or the system, so you can wax lyrical about specs all you want, the fact is it all needs putting into context, and ultimately, almost all speakers have their own character and its down to the end user to judge if they like it or not. A large part of the make up of speakers comes down to the drivers used, and the cabinet design (volume of the cabinet being a massive part of the final sound, as well as a sealed or BR design implementation). The crossover network is also part of this, and this is another area XTZ have come forward and clearly stated that they use standard components over fancy expensive ones of the same value, because ultimately it makes little or no difference to the final sound. Take some time to fully research the products, then feel free to cast your own opinion, although till you have actually listened to them, how much credit I would give that opinion is a complete guess.

Sin comentarios.

Un saludete